- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63691775
Posted this in Fediverse Memes but got deleted for some reason, can’t imagine why.
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At this point I wish you’d go ahead and defederate, if that makes these idiotic discussions stop.
I’m actually offended by being called a supporter of the Israeli government just because feddit is my home instance.
I’m also pretty sure that feddit-bashing won’t improve the life of a single Palestinian one bit.The discontent is directed at the admin team which is incessantly equating criticism to Israel as antisemitism.
I’m also pretty sure that feddit-bashing won’t improve the life of a single Palestinian one bit.
We should always fight conflation between antisemitism and anti-zionism, the favorite tool of zionists to dissimulate their heinous acts in Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.
You can criticize Israel on feddit, most of its users do.
Calling for the destruction of Israel isn’t criticism. Same as writing “Death to America” wouldn’t be criticism of the Trump administration.
And if you react to a comment removal by telling the mods to kill themselves or calling them Nazis, you’d get booted off any instance regardless of what the comment was about.Israel was founded 75 years ago as an explicitly settler-colonialist ethnostate project on the existing land of Palestine. This was wrong and unacceptable then and it continues to be so. The state of Israel should not exist. Death to Israel.
Criticism is something where the other side can say “you’re right, I’ll stop that and do better”.
“Israel shouldn’t exist” isn’t criticism, the Israelis currently living there can’t just stop existing.Why are you Kraut fuckers always so intent on conflating a population with a nation-state? Literal blood-and-soil nationalism. Dismantling Israel doesn’t necessarily have to mean the cessation of existence for all its current citizens, and it’s intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge that fact in this conversation.
Fediverse Memes has some pretty selective and meh moderation, really limits what parts of the Fediverse are allowed to be memed. I’ve ended up blocking it entirely.
Probably going to need an alternative comm soon.
We will make our own Fediverse memes! With fediverseball and fedispiders!
add
.worldto that meme.I don’t know guys. Feddit is a general instance, so there are also Libs here and probably even a few Zionists. But my impression is that most people are very critical of Israel.
It’s not about the users per se but the admin team whixh is adamant on appeasing zionists.
I saw the “controversy”: at what point do you follow unjust laws about genocidal apartheid states and say you have had enough genocide?
Is “fuck Bibi’s ethnostate” allowed?
Is “fuck apartheid religions” allowed?I would say that “fuck Bibi’s ethnostate” is not a problem at all. “Fuck apartheid religions” could be a problem if it criticizes Jews as a group and not the ideology of Zionism. The same applies to right-wingers who accuse all Muslims of being terrorists because they are part of a terrorist religion, instead of limiting this to the ideology of Islamism. In general, I would say that it makes a very, very big difference whether one directs one’s criticism at Judaism or Jews, or at Israel and Israelis.
What is repeatedly discussed is whether moderating “Death to Israel” (or similar) and banning corresponding users is an expression of a Zionist ideology on the part of the feddit moderators. To this I would say: even if the author means Israel as a state and is not calling for the death of Israelis, he is aware of and accepts the possibility of the latter interpretation and its ambiguity. To interpret the moderation of this as Zionism is, in my opinion, exaggerated and malicious. It also empties the term “Zionism” of its analytical content.
“Fuck apartheid religions” could be a problem if it criticizes Jews as a group
Why Judaism in particular, when it’s not the only apartheid religion in existence? I don’t want racist religions to exist.
“Death to Israel” means both: the state, and it’s racist religion. Bibi wants the Torah’s theist ethnostate. This is why he is genociding Palestinians. We are not saying “death to jews,” we are saying “death to theist ethnostates, esp. Bibi’s interpretation killing millions of people.”
Zionists are one class above the same ethnostatism. We don’t want eithers.
Yeah if all jews were into aoartheid, fuck the whole religion.
Im pretty sure theyre not. But like if they were. Like, the problem with ‘the protocols of the elders of zion’ is that it is¹ a crock of filthy completely made up fucking lies put together to direct the peasantry’s very real frustrations at what their owners were doing against some poor fucking scapegoats who had not in fact done any of that shit. If it were true, if someone actually did do half that shit² they would totally deserve extermination!
¹until the zionists came along and started LARPing it
²like every authoritarian ruling caste ever. Or a trio of assholes in new york. Now if youll excuse me, im late to drain my blood boy.
all jews were into aoartheid, fuck the whole religion.
You’re doing the thing Æquitas & I are not: associating a cultural identity to an apartheid religion. We are clearly against apartheid religions for blatant reasons. That includes Judaistic apartheism. The few non-racist Judeos are not the whole that want to see Palestinians killed.
Death to Judeo apartheism.
Im literally saying… Fucking nevermind.
Just correct yourself:
Death to Israel.
Context is important here, in my opinion. It is one thing to claim that Judaism is worse than other religions in this regard (which it is not, as evangelicals or ISIS prove, for example), and quite another to accuse religions in general of a tendency toward apartheid. The problem is not Judaism, but Israel’s political ideology. It would make no difference if the Israelis were Sikh, Shinto, or Zoroastrian. Furthermore, most Jews do not live in Israel, but in the US.
“Death to Israel” is ambiguous. It can be read, for example, as “Death towards Israel” and, of course, as “Death to the Israelis” or, as you mean it, as “Death to the state of Israel.” The fact that you have to explain what exactly is meant illustrates this very clearly. And I think that the slogan is deliberately ambiguous. It is intended to provoke and reliably achieves its goal through this ambiguity. It would be easy to resolve the contradiction by adding “state of.” And if one is really concerned with objectivity and not emotions, one could also omit the word ‘death’ and just say “Dissolve Israel.” No ambiguity but delivers the message you want. Doesn’t sound as impressive and martial tho.
It is simply exaggerated and intellectually lazy to accuse Feddit.org of Zionism, where any criticism of Israel would be suppressed. Recently, there was a discussion on feddit about giving the Israelis a piece of Bavaria and returning Israel to the Palestinians. It was not banned or moderated away.
Yeah, we’re not going to entertain your denial of Judaistic apartheism.
“Death to Israel” is ambiguous
it’s not. We made this pretty clear here, and elsewhere.
The fact that you have to explain
It’s the otherway around: the fact you want to ambiguoize a simple phrase by enforcing an unjust law your German state as your justification makes it clear to everyone which stance you police and ban for.
We are blatantly accusing your instance of policing anti apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state, that just so happens to banner Israel’s name in vain. Israel fought an angel for his name, and now we have to fight you too?
Yeah, we’re not going to entertain your denial of Judaistic apartheism.
American nationalists have their “God’s own country,” and radical Christians interpret the Bible in exactly the same way as nationalist from Israel interpret the Torah. I don’t think I need to quote you any relevant passages from the Bible. ISIS, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Iranian theocracy do the same thing with Islam. Indian nationalists do the same with Hinduism. The problem here is political ideology, not religion per se. If you think that Jews are evil because of their religious background, then you are indeed crossing the line into antisemitism, and we will not agree. If you criticize Israel’s political ideology, Zionism, that’s completely different and legitimate. But just like religious nationalism in the US, Iran, or India, it has nothing to do with the respective religion. It only serves to legitimize it. To disregard this is either stupidity or malice.
it’s not. We made this pretty clear here, and elsewhere.
It’s not a good sign for a political slogan if you have to read the fine print to get the right interpretation. You’re also overestimating how many people are actually confronted with something like this. That’s why very few people will have heard about the clarification of this slogan. This in turn leads to provocations, overly emotional debates, misunderstandings, and insults. I can understand why the mods delete such content tbh.
you want to ambiguoize a simple phrase by enforcing an unjust law your German state as your justification
what are you talking about? I am not enforcing shit. I have no power anywhere. I just want to explain why it’s ridiculous to accuse people of Zionism because they have a problem with this phrase. Why do you demand the benefit of the doubt for yourself, but are not willing to grant it to others?
We are blatantly accusing your instance of policing anti apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state
If you think that the only way to speak out against a current active genocidal state is to write “Death to Israel,” then that’s not just pathetic, it’s childish.
I don’t think it helps to keep explaining to you that it is perfectly possible to speak out against the genocide of Israel on feddit.org, that this is even the majority opinion there. This is just one of those shitty left-wing purity contests that exist on other issues as well, which have been weakening the left for decades.
It’s not a good sign for a political slogan if you have to read the fine print to get the right interpretation.
Do you read the fine print for “Deutschland verrecke” or “Death to America” as well, or does that only apply when it comes to Israel?
You’re also overestimating how many people are actually confronted with something like this. That’s why very few people will have heard about the clarification of this slogan.
We’re on Lemmy, which means unless you limit yourself to just the local feddit.org feed (and I know for a fact that the typical zionists on feddit don’t), you get confronted with this on a fairly regular basis. And you wouldn’t need any clarification if you knew how to fucking read. Israel ≠ Israelis, it’s literally that simple.
I can understand why the mods delete such content tbh.
I can’t. We’re on a federated platform with an international community, which made it clear countless times that “Death to Israel” does not refer to killing all the Israelis/Jews in the world, often even explicitly speaking out against this. Considering that most Feddit users are proficient in English, especially admins/mods and those I’ve seen to misinterpret this slogan, I refuse to believe that they don’t know this by now. And somehow this (along with the absolute clusterfuck of Anti-Germans) is almost an exclusively German issue, because the rest of the international Left understands just fine what this slogan means.
If you think that the only way to speak out against a current active genocidal state is to write “Death to Israel,” then that’s not just pathetic, it’s childish.
Nobody claims that this is the only way, but considering that the existence of Israel as its own state to this day prevents and more than likely will continue to prevent peaceful coexistence, it’s a justified one. Is it pathetic and childish? Maybe, but much less so than misinterpreting it to fit your narrative.
